Sameer Pagnis, an experienced C-suite leader and Advisory Board Member at Pacific International, is no stranger to the complex dynamics of executive leadership. In the previous conversation with Margaret Jaouadi, he highlighted two of the most pressing challenges organizations face in today’s leadership landscape: adapting to ongoing volatility and disruption and navigating cultural fit in executive hires.
Sameer emphasized that conventional leadership approaches are no longer enough. To succeed in today’s VUCA world, leaders must demonstrate agility, resilience, foster collective intelligence, and anchor decision-making in a clear sense of purpose.
In this follow-up discussion with Margaret Jaouadi, Sameer delves deeper into how organizations can assess adaptability, ensure cultural fit beyond the interview, and attract talent aligned with their deeper mission.
This conversation is a practical guide for organizations seeking to secure executive talent that not only survives change but also shapes it.
Margaret Jaouadi
You mentioned that conventional playbooks often fail in today’s environment. Can you share an example of a leader you hired or worked alongside who succeeded by adapting quickly to disruption?
Sameer Pagnis
This question has become more pertinent than ever in the last 5-6 years as the world has undergone wild changes in practically every aspect of business.
Good organizations regularly conduct lessons learned exercises when things go right or wrong. However, there’s one critical question that often gets overlooked because it’s uncomfortable: What would the leader have done differently? This issue remains underexplored, and that’s where the real value lies.
Ambitious leaders are action-oriented. Their decisiveness rests on the foundation of experience and knowledge accumulated over decades, which I call conventional wisdom. They rely on what has worked in the past, believing it will continue to work in the future. But that’s a fallacy.
When variables swing wildly due to geopolitics, innovation pace, technology adoption curves, and shifting customer sentiments, conventional wisdom becomes the most dangerous place to start. In times like these, leaders need to understand that “nobody is better than everybody “. A collective thinking machine that can sift through various variables and make informed decisions will win in the long run.
I once mentored a very young, ambitious talent who went on to become a major leader with a substantial P&L. He was exceptional, articulate, and brilliant. But his strength became his weakness. He would win every argument and debate with his team, literally every single time. Because he was intelligent and articulate, he could dominate any conversation, even without deep background knowledge. The machine wasn’t engaging in collective thinking; it was merely carrying out his will.
He was responsible for a new portfolio driven by emerging technology trends, and it was struggling to drive profitable growth. His usual style wasn’t working because he was regurgitating past successes rather than adapting to new realities.
During a mentoring session, I asked him to introspect: Are your team discussions driving actual learning and uncovering previously unknown facts, or are you just winning arguments to feel good and force your bidding?
One of the benefits of great leaders is that they’re quick to understand feedback. He wasn’t defensive and acted immediately. I saw a significant transformation in how he structured his team. He began hiring people who were better than he was in certain aspects.
Then he delegated key business decisions to these people, a sign of significant growth.
The discussions stopped being debates. The team took bold risks to reshape the portfolio, and the team stepped up with accountability because they were now part of the journey. Over time, the mentee transformed his extensive portfolio and started leading a multi-billion-dollar profit and loss (P&L) statement.
For me, it was a privilege to witness this transformation, not just of the leader but of the entire team around him. It was a big win for the organization as a whole.
Margaret Jaouadi
How can companies effectively vet C-suite candidates for their ability to lead in volatile, uncertain environments?
Sameer Pagnis
This question is critical, given the limited time available in the interview process to understand everything a candidate has accomplished over their career. For me, Margaret, it boils down to learning through intellectual curiosity and wanting to get it right, not just wanting to be right.
The usual attributes, such as strategy, execution, talent management, customer connection, and business acumen, matter. However, when we consider our rapidly evolving world, the one differentiating quality is the ability to learn by being curious. This attribute is key to how a leader continues learning.
In many ways, the VUCA environment is like a Rubik’s Cube. You can’t solve it by constantly looking at one face. It’s a multifaceted and multidimensional challenge that requires you to examine different angles. Today’s world isn’t binary; it’s not about right and wrong, black and white. It’s a sea of grey.
What I’ve always found is that great minds approach topics with insatiable curiosity. They ask lots of questions: Why this? Why not that? How does this happen? Then they learn through it.
So I recommend asking more about the learning methods of these leaders in your interview process. Allow sufficient time for questioning and exploration: How does this candidate learn? What’s their process? How do they keep up with secular trends? What could they have done differently in particular situations? What are their learning lessons?
Even in informal conversations, focus on the leader’s intellectual curiosity. How informed are they about various things happening around the world, not just business-specific, but in general. What type of questions do they ask the interviewers? Are these questions demonstrating their intelligence or highlighting experiences they’ve already discussed, or are they truly curious about the role’s nature, company culture, challenges, and opportunities?
All of these aspects point to someone truly dedicated to exploring and understanding.
More often than not, curious leaders are also humble because curiosity starts with the Socratic position: “I don’t know, and therefore I want to learn.” That requires humility, being humble enough to say, “I don’t know, let me learn.” I think that’s an excellent advantage for any leader.
Margaret Jaouadi
That’s fascinating, but I imagine it’s challenging in practice. When you’re hired to lead, admitting you don’t know something can feel like a risk. How do you manage perceptions while still demonstrating that intellectual curiosity is a strength?
Sameer Pagnis
I recall a CEO I worked with who shared an insightful perspective on board interactions. He told me that senior leaders often make the mistake of thinking they must answer every board question with complete specificity. But that’s not the point.
What boards are looking for is the courage to say, “I don’t know. What do you think? Let’s talk about it.” Or “I don’t know, but maybe it’s like this,” and then have an open-ended conversation. That’s where real value emerges, because it brings board members into the conversation as well.
This discovery was eye-opening for me because I know senior leaders prepare exhaustively for board meetings. They try to be ready for literally every question. In that process, they forget that when there’s a question they don’t have an answer to, they should jump on the opportunity to say, “I don’t know about this. That’s a great question. What do you think? I have this opinion, but I’m not certain what you would think about this?”
Unlocking that courage to say “I don’t know” is critical. It’s not about appearing weak or unprepared—it’s about demonstrating the intellectual honesty and collaborative mindset that drives real problem-solving.
Margaret Jaouadi
You’ve highlighted how cultural misalignment is a leading cause of executive turnover. What can companies do to go beyond the “keyhole camera” interview and truly assess for cultural fit?
Sameer Pagnis
This is a crucial question, and I often think about it because the process is so skewed. Organizations expect candidates to be transparent and self-aware, able to discuss themselves openly and honestly. But the bigger question is: Are organizations reciprocating? Are they even in a position to be transparent about their own culture?
Cultural misalignment is the single most significant driver of executive turnover, often within the first few months. In the last two years, Margaret, I’ve seen public companies where newly hired CEOs left within the first few weeks. Consider the implications of hiring for a critical leadership position only to have them not be a good fit.
I started to question the process. Are companies in a position to honestly talk about their culture? Suppose I asked the top five executives of any organization trying to hire a leader to describe their culture. In that case, you’d receive the usual surface-level responses, such as “we’re open” and “we’re transformative,” and so on. But peel the onion further and see how cohesive the response is when you explore both the good and challenging aspects.
This critical issue isn’t talked about enough or transparently within companies. Organizations don’t give enough time to pause and ask, “What’s our culture? What are the good things, and what are the challenging things?”
The onus rests on the hiring organization to have absolute clarity on its culture and then communicate it transparently to candidates. That should include both the great and the challenging parts. You should be able to discuss both openly.
Now that you have your cards on the table, you have a transparent, self-aware candidate who understands how the company operates. Then you can start honest conversations. For example, if a company says “we’re very action-oriented,” you can explore how a candidate would navigate that cultural aspect. What about thoughtful risk-taking? Is it promoted and rewarded? What’s the pace of decision-making? How is authority distributed? How is accountability distributed?
These conversations reveal whether there’s genuine alignment between the candidate’s working style and the organization’s actual culture, not just its aspirational culture.
Margaret Jaouadi
What happens when this cultural assessment process fails?
Sameer Pagnis
When we fail, it’s usually because we haven’t connected the dots between cultural understanding and real-world application. You need to move beyond discussing culture in abstract terms and apply it to actual business situations.
Think about it this way: culture can be pretty esoteric, but you have to ground it in specific scenarios. Ask candidates how they’ve performed in similar cultural environments. Present them with real situations they’d face and explore how they’d navigate them given your cultural realities.
This conversation becomes powerful for both sides. The candidate can honestly assess: “Yes, I understand this. I can work with this and succeed in this environment.” Meanwhile, the organization can evaluate: “We don’t see evidence of this candidate being successful in our kind of environment. This is who we are, and we need someone who can thrive here.”
This approach transforms cultural assessment from a superficial exercise into a valuable decision-making tool. It forces both parties to have honest conversations about fit rather than just hoping for the best.
Margaret Jaouadi
I’ve always struggled with the concept of “cultural fit.” Does it mean the person has to accept the status quo, or is it more about finding someone who can align with your values while helping you evolve? I find “cultural fit” almost mysterious because it encompasses such a vast area and can sometimes feel exclusionary. I prefer thinking about “cultural alignment” or “values alignment.” What’s your take on this distinction?
Sameer Pagnis
You’re right, and the key question is, how do you develop that genuine alignment? The way to establish it is not to be satisfied with the outer layer of the onion. People often stop there because the next layer becomes uncomfortable, and the one after that becomes even more painful.
You must immerse yourself in the discomfort of truly understanding your culture. Let me give you an example. Many companies say, “We like leaders who challenge the status quo”. But the real question is: Do you have actual examples of leaders who questioned the status quo, and you supported them?
Many companies say, “We value diversity,” but do you have examples of not hiring clones of existing leadership? Have you hired people from different backgrounds and experiences, and did they thrive in your environment?
The distinction you’re making between “fit” and “alignment” is crucial. Fit suggests conformity; alignment suggests shared direction while allowing for individual contribution to growth.
Margaret Jaouadi
You talked about purpose as a ‘North Star’ for decision-making in complex environments. How have you seen purpose help leaders navigate challenging decisions, such as mergers and acquisitions (M&A) or restructuring?
Sameer Pagnis
Everybody needs to understand the company’s true purpose. I was in conversation with senior leaders of an organization, and when we started discussing their purpose statement, the first question was naturally, “What’s our purpose?” Out of ten leaders, five said, “It’s easy: we’re here to make money.”
I was shocked by that answer because it revealed a profound lack of understanding of what motivates people every day. Of course, all companies are commercial enterprises. You’re there to create value, generate returns for investors and shareholders, and foster career growth for employees. That’s not wrong.
However, you must acknowledge that a person in the Philippines operating a machine on your shop floor isn’t waking up every day thinking, “I’m going to work to make money.” They’re thinking about what motivates them. When you have complex global workforces, they need a reason to understand their motivation, their purpose, and their reason to exist.
Purpose has become increasingly important to new generations who want to understand: What’s your place in this world? What does this company do globally? When done thoughtfully, purpose encapsulates the spirit of the organization and its ambitions to be part of the world in which we live.
A strong purpose reflects long-term strategy, governs day-to-day decisions and actions, and defines who you are as a company. It gives every employee clarity: “This is what we do. This is who we are.” That becomes the company’s identity.
I’ve seen powerful purpose statements used frequently by leadership teams in communications, webcasts, and town halls. It creates clarity about how the future looks and what path the company is on. It helps navigate tough calls such as restructuring, acquisitions, divestitures, and organic growth. Everything becomes clearer through this lens.
In a world where inbound opportunities bombard the C-suite, such as “Hey, we’re up for sale, would you like to buy this company?”, the purpose acts as a beacon. I call it a lighthouse where you say, “That’s where I want to go. I don’t want to get attracted to everything. That’s my path.”
It’s very real when you get an inbound book that’s nicely prepared and designed to make you fall in love with an opportunity. What you have to test it against is: Where is my North Star? Where is my lighthouse? Is this opportunity on that path or not?
It reminded me of a quote from Alice in Wonderland where the Cheshire Cat says, “If you don’t know where you’re going, any path will take you there.”
Margaret Jaouadi
Sameer, you’ve spent years identifying and developing exceptional talent. In your experience, what do high-impact leaders look for today when considering a new opportunity, and what can organizations do to attract these future-ready leaders?
Sameer Pagnis
We’ve touched on some of these elements before. Let me share three key aspects that are crucial for high-impact leadership talent.
First is company culture. It’s a significant part of the decision-making process as candidates engage in multiple conversations. They’re looking for a common thread of culture that’s visible in the leaders they talk to. High-impact candidates conduct thorough due diligence on companies’ strategies, business positions, and financials, but they also leverage their network to gain a deeper understanding of company culture.
I’ve received calls from people in the process of joining new companies asking, “What’s your experience with this person or that person? How good is this business? Is it too good to be true?” But they always ask about culture: “I’m concerned if I can fit here. Can I work with this team? Can I enjoy working with this team?”
The second aspect is value creation. People may not explicitly state it, but exceptional leaders thrive in environments where they can create differentiated value. That’s what they’re wired to do. Is your structure and role definition capable of giving talent the tools to realize their full potential? High-impact leaders experience fulfillment through such environments and achievements, which creates long-term commitment and a truly symbiotic relationship.
The third is career arc. Is the organization in the habit of hiring “two-step talent”? Many organizations claim they’re hiring you not just for the current position, but also for the next one. Hiring someone they believe will develop into bigger talent quickly. But is there evidence of growth and performance? Is there fluidity in how talent moves within the company?
If you say you’re hiring two-step talent, but your top two or three organizational layers show people sitting in roles for several decades, your words don’t mean much. You need evidence of actually doing that.
High-impact leaders are passionate about learning and embracing new challenges. That’s how they find fulfillment. Great organizations recognize this and develop talent processes that allow leaders to manage their career arc and development proactively. This happens through frequent conversations not only with their supervisor, but with other leaders in the company.
These people have access to multiple leaders and can discuss their development: “How should I develop? Where do I stand? What should I acquire to be successful?” They can make their career aspirations known and proactively manage their development plan. These systems are crucial for organizations to establish if they want to attract and retain top talent at a high level of performance.
Margaret Jaouadi
Thank you, Sameer, for yet another insighful conversation.
You can connect with Sameer Pagnis on LinkedIn or message him at sameer.pagnis@pacific-international.com